Thursday 18 August 2011

A new town centre for Talbot Green


The Proposal

In the 1960s-1970s, there were plans for a "new town" at Llantrisant - in the same manner as Cwmbran - and linked to Cardiff by a duel carriageway. Hansard records from 1972 show that up to £300million of public and private money was to be invested. Not a small sum in 70's money.

For whatever reason, the plans by the UK Government never went through. However, the area did develop as a key commuter "town", with no coherent strategy and piecemeal housing developments. The whole Pontyclun/Talbot Green/Llantrsiant area is a bit of a planning mess to be honest.

In the last few weeks Valad and Scarborough Developments unveiled outline proposals for a new £200million "town centre" that is hoped will provide much needed focus to the area, and provide up to 1,900 jobs. The development will include:
  • A replacement store for Leekes and new supermarket
  • Up to 40 other high-street stores, including at least one large department store
  • 2 multi-storey car parks
  • A cinema complex
  • A "restaurant/cafe quarter"
  • A hotel
  • Apartments and townhouses
  • Offices and civic facilities
  • Improvements to cycling and bus facilities

Potential Issues

The site, next to Y Pant Comprehensive, is slap bang in the middle of the "new town" and would be a natural location for such a development. However welcome the jobs and development is, there are a number of concerns.

Firstly the impact on traffic. Valad and Scarborough are also involved in a mooted business park at Mwyndy Cross which has been controversial locally. Their plans there include a grade separated junction on the A4119. However, nearer the new town centre, the roads are unlikely to cope with additional traffic without further upgrades. It's an important route from the Rhondda and Ely Valleys to the M4, in addition to traffic being funnelled from Beddau and Church Village.

In addition, the new town centre is more than a mile away from Pontyclun railway station - and there's no timetable for the (proposed) reintroduction of passenger services on the railway to Beddau (planning permission is being sought to turn it into a cycle path currently). The fact there are two multi-story car parks hints that this isn't going to be a "sustainable" development, transport wise.

Also Talbot Green already has two large "big box" retail parks a stones throw from the new town centre. Lessons need to be learned from nearby Pontypridd. There's currently a redevelopment of the Taff Vale Centre as well as multi-million pound public realm improvements as part of the towns regeneration. The anchor store for the new Taff Vale Centre is...........Poundland.

I don't think it's a good sign when Poundland and anchor store are mentioned in the same sentence.

Could Talbot Green be the first new shopping development entirely housed by charity shops and pound shops? There is a critical mass needed to sustain certain chain stores and judging by the vote-of-little-confidence given to Pontypridd, who's to say it won't happen in Talbot Green?

Sign of a bigger Valleys southward shift?

Could Talbot Green actually attract the bigger chains and could this be part of an inevitable "M4-ing" of the valleys, with people and businesses in Rhondda Cynon Taf shifting southwards.

I believe that people should be "pulled" (economically) from the heads of the valleys area towards the M4. The days of bribing big foreign companies to set up a branch factory in the valleys are long over.

Instead of trying to develop the areas economy (with the exception of indigenous companies and entrepreneurship), the focus should be on quality of life, transport and a gentle depopulation in favour of larger housing developments, key economic developments and larger conurbations in the southern half of the Valleys -  places like Talbot Green, Bridgend, Caerphilly, Risca and Cwmbran/Newport. The area defined as the "Connections Corridor" in the Wales Spatial Plan.

Schemes like this hint that developers realise the trend and think they can make some money out of it. When will tub-thumping Valley politicians "get it" as well?

All in all though, an interesting development well worth keeping an eye on. I'm also slightly jealous as this is the sort of development Bridgend town centre has been crying out for for the best part of a decade. Time for a developer to raise the stakes in Bridgend methinks.

19 comments:

  1. I was among those who opposed the Llantrisant Town Plan in the 70's . I an a way its a pity we won because as you point out development went on without any real organised infrastructure.

    Acyualy I think you find the opposed development around the old Staples/Purocite site is nearer than the existing town centre.

    I can't see any rail connection to Beddau being made it would not be viable. But the new Bypass should make connextion (Provided adjustments are made at the Pontyclun/Talbot end OK for those with their own Transport.

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  2. I'm not sure but I think the RCT LDP states that future social housing provision will be concentrated in Tonyrefail and Beddau, neither of which has a rail connection!

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  3. When just about every town and city centre in Wales other than Cardiff is dying on it's arse, it seems bizarre that anyone should propose building a completely new artificial one.
    Swansea and Newport are unable to attract major chain stores to their centres so how is Talbot Green going to succeed?

    My suspicions are this is just another grant farming, subsidy milking exercise by the developers with the promise of jobs that never materialise.

    Another Valleywood?

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  4. Glyn - Reopening the Beddau line has been suggested for a while now. SEWTA have done a detailed study for it as well. If the money were there I'd say it were doable, but obviously the money isn't there any more. At the very least they should upgrade Pontyclun station.

    Anon 11:09 - All large new housing developments need a minumum of (laughably called) "affordable housing", I think it's something like 30%. Social housing in particular should be built as close to jobs and public transport hubs as possible. Sticking council estates on the side of mountains does nobody any good.

    Anon 12:04 - These sorts of developments rarely get any kind of subsidy. Having said that they rarely live up to their potential either, including the promise of jobs as you say.

    Talbot Green should be able to attract the big chains because of it's large catchment area (you can probably include the wealthy north Vale of Glamorgan in it as well). You are right that it's not guaranteed though. I'd say this is more viable than Valleywood but that's not saying much!

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  5. This develoment should be opposed full stop. Once Valad take their money and disappear we'll be left with an eyesore full of charity/mobile phone shops and even worse congestion.
    As for the railway line the last I heard it will be a viable option but they are deciding on whether it will go via Pontyclun or Creigiau (which ever is the cheapest i guess).

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  6. beddau person - Obviously if money were no object I'd reopen both lines, with the aim of encouraging sustainable development in north west Cardiff, so places like Talbot Green and Beddau will be given a break from new housing developments for once.

    Regarding the "eyesore" comment, this development doesn't look too bad on the surface. It could be a lot lot worse to be honest. Whether it will actually end up looking like the artists impressions is a whole different matter.

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  7. Hi Owen - good points, but I doubt very much that places like Beddau/Talbot Green will ever escape the relentless housing expansion in the future - with or without any infrastructure.

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  8. How is this new project going to weave into the already existing town of Talbot Green?

    These sort of projects look great on paper with beautifully dressed women brandishing Gucci handbags, men dressed in Armani suits all drinking coffee on pavement cafes. Dream on.

    The reality is you have Talbot Green town centre turning into a graveyard with yet another retail outlet replicating the other 2 with the exception of Leekes. Wake up!

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  9. Leekes Store is falling down? The Developers Valad and Investors Scarborough and the banks really need to take advantage of this area. After all they all stand to make a lot of money. It is quite possible there is an outstanding loan for the land. So it is in the interest of the investors and profiteers to receive the go ahead from RCT as soon as possible.

    I and lots of others say no to this development, because, those who stand to gain the most from it are rejecting the notion of community life and are showing little regard for the character of this area our young peopl who are suffering from lack of local facilities, arts and cultural activities, safe open spaces, sports and leisure. Maybe, RCT planners believe that places such as the Odean Cinema provides all the necessary cultural activity! How much is it to see a film or buy a box of popcorn there?

    This development really does not have the necessary public transport network, civic amenities, parks etc, to be able to call it a town and definately not a town worthy of this area.

    Moroever, jobs are great but the jobs need to be defined. Are they permanent, well paid, full time, secure jobs Or are the majority of jobs part time, temporary, minimal paid positions? Maybe there will be a few managerial positions available, most taken by those who are promoted and relocate.

    What extra help will the council give to existing small, local businesses in helping them compete and survive the large Global Business that are expected to arrive. Most research suggests that areas around large retail parks become poorer in time.

    Then, what happens when the Developers have packed up and moved on and left us with the sheds with car parking spaces to detoriate in time and with the access roads will need to be maintained? It is those who own the development who will decide and us who will pay?
    There are some recent cases of seriously declining retail parks and it is the banks who are in control, as creditors they own them. As, the buildings are detiorate the banks hold on, they refuse to sell to the councils seeking to buy and improve, or maybe even knock them down Still the banks hold on for better economic conditions and a better price. Unfortunately, so dominant are the Retail Parks that especially in decline the negative consequences will be felt by the local communities.

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  10. Thanks for the comment, Anon.

    As I mentioned before, the Talbot Green area was earmarked for a Cwmbran-style "new town". When that was rejected, it was developed like that anyway, but without any big plan governing how the area would develop. All very "tail wagging the dog".

    If these developments are going to "go out of fashion", then it requires a big shift in attitude by consumers. It's shopping and cultural habits driving developments like this, and yes short-term profits as well. But until we all choose to do something different with our money, than take a trip to an out-of-town centre, it won't change.

    I agree that transport issues will need to be sorted out. There's no way a development of this size can be built without significant infrastructure improvements. Sadly, that means roads as it looks like the Beddau rail line won't be reopened for a while yet. I have a post related to that coming up later this week.

    As you say, many of these retail parks are owned by banks, but also pension funds. They wouldn't be interested if they didn't think they would have "sustainable income streams". I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with extra jobs either, even if they are low-level, low-value added jobs in retail. It has a value of its own. I just wish Wales would aim a little bit higher than that, as it seems to be the only way to get large numbers of jobs in short space of time other than house-building.

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  11. Thank you for your insightful thoughts regarding the proposed development Talbot Green. I have not seen the Cwmbran Development. What is it like?

    I know the jobs are important for the community, young people who need to work part time, students, women and all. Of course you desire the good quality jobs, me too and why not?

    I am not against progress, long term sustainable and ecologically friendly development.

    How many multi story car parking spaces? WAG policy refers and pays homage to responsible ecological committment and planning.

    You say, where there is a demand there will be continued development of the monsterous ugly retail sites .

    I am unsure about the ( Local Council)even receiving the business rates. A recent radio program discussed towns degenerating and with empty shops etc., highlighting that Councils will be financially penalised in future if they allow this pattern to continue.

    Maybe, I will start with a personal rejection of the large retail park shopping experience, I am responsible too and need to change my own habits. The next question is how? To give shoppers some alternatives, lots of places up and down the country have farmers markets, food and goods from local businesses. Don't think we have many small cottage industries here, do we?

    There really doesn't have to be a 'need'for this development to go ahead, that idea really is the Kings New Clothes and we just have to look around us to see how many shops, restaurants, bars we have. All it does take is a financier, developer, International businesses profits and a willing Council.

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  12. Much appreciate your insight.

    There really doesn't have to be 'need' for this development to be given the green light, just a financier, developer, profits for International Businesses, a willing Council. This development really is the 'Kings New Clothes', we only have to look around to find there is no lack of shops, restaurants and bars so there will inevitably be job losses?

    You are right, I must take responsibility for my own shopping habits and change them. This will take some planning. There are the farmers markets and local shops. So maybe I actually avoid shopping at any of the Retail Parks for at least a month, if so then I will be possible to continue to do so?

    Those pension funds, wonder how many people in Rhondda Cynon Taff have pensions investments managed by the large Global Pension funds?

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  13. Thanks for the comment Anon.

    When planning applications are submitted, they are always considered based on the merits of the application alone, not "wider impacts" like property prices, impacts on town centres, removal of nice views etc. I think that's the right approach, in general, but it also means we end up with developments like this.

    I like to see ambitious developments in Wales, and I think this is one, even if some of the specifics I'd have to disagree with. I'm not entirely sure the economic case for this scheme will stand up under close scruitiny.

    What I'd like to see is some of the advantages of supermarkets and "big box" retailers brought closer to town centres. For example local businesses setting up a cooperative all under one roof. A bit like your typical local market, but with the branding, facilities and management of a supermarket, providing a wider range of services and links to local food suppliers etc.

    With that, maybe more people will be able to enjoy the convenience of a supermarket with the knowledge they are genuinely supporting local businesses.

    With regard pension funds, I think the RCT one was picked out recently for investing in tobacco. Sadly, when you are looking for the best returns, you need to do stuff like that. That's a hard economic fact, however unpalatable it is. I just wish more of this money was invested in local or national schemes, like business start-ups and infrastructure bonds.

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  14. Hello,

    The LDP were drawn up several years ago. In context to the LDP the Talbot Green proposal is the cheapest option, rather than regenerating the various villages for example, Taffs Well, Church Village, Treforest,etc., to include all those in the Southern RCT. There are wider considerations such as, skylines. For instance, one problem I heard about was the obstruction of the view of Llantrisant Church? This may be an old planning law.

    I was thinking with hope and delight about your idea of an all under one roof local market. Business start ups, great.

    I realise the nature of the dog eat dog economic system and the stock markets, globalisation, the richest and most powerful companies are owned by so few. "Tobacco", ironic?

    There is a recognised lack of ambition for the Welsh Valleys and by those who have sought the power to change things. While, there is no better time than now, to encourage innovation and build high quality developments, finally to break the historic cycle of cheap and convenient planning that typifies this area.

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  15. The reason this scheme is cheaper is because of "economies of scale". It means big returns for relatively little investment. Regenerating smaller centres makes sense, but there's no way it would be able to have the same impact.

    That whole part of southern RCT is merging very slowly into a single, bigger town. This development is going to cement that. These things do take some time, so there's plenty of opportunity for objections on the Llantrisant Church view etc.

    It could be at least 5 years before there's even any construction on this, and anything can happen between now and then, especially in relation to the overall health of the economy and the availability of finance to built it.

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  16. Dear Owen,

    The LDP Policy,surveys and assessments of this proposal refers to protecting the character of the existing seperate villages, particularly those with a shopping centre and closest, Pontyclun, Talbot Green. Remmber Pontyclun, Talbot Green, Llantrisant are defined as villages, not towns, please correct me if I am wrong.

    Referring to one of the earlier comments regarding the design and architecture of the development. It was confirmed by the Developer at a local meeting that, the incoming business will determine the design of the individual units. So, for example,if Next decide to set up shop there then, they will decide the design of the unit, the same for leisure operators such as the Odeon Cinema.

    It was confirmed that the New Town illustration, with the Georgian windows and Church Spire, and where we may expect to find a village store and library around the corner, isn't exactly what it will look like?

    The proposal includes the high rise Car Parks, the developers say there is going to be a charge for the parking, they believe that this may encourage people to use other means of transport, or encourage shoppers to continue using their local shops?

    The Plans are in and approval is expected this summer.
    I believe there issues that need investigation by the environment agency, a Gentleman at a community meeting who had worked for the MOD said that Hazardous Waste had been dumped on the Purolite or Staedler site some years ago (Berrylium and more), this he said was taken from the Atomic Weapons Factory Caerphilly Road Cardiff. As BAE and Environ are just two of the companies to have managed the land sites since, it has been difficult to get a definitive answer from the Environment Agency. In their surveys The developer refers to Natural Mitigation, toxic substances naturally depleting over time. If there then such material would put the public at risk if not expertly managed and its movement recorded, as it has to go somewhere else?

    One of the Developers Directors, said when asked, "there are definately no plans to include any open spaces, such as football pitches, parks, after all towns don't have such places", "and who would pay for it"? The questioner gave examples of all those towns complete with open space, playing fields etc.

    The developer also confirmed that this area is one of the most lucrative retail areas. If so, then they should give back a lot more to the community. For example,seeing Y Pant Comprehensive, I found the pupils to be studying in a somewhat less that satisfactory environment, in a flood plain, school buildings being very degraded.

    Back to those all important business rates, at Talbot Green, Tesco, M&S, Next etc pay business rates, how much and to whom, how is it used? What I am really asking is, what's in it for us.

    Valad Developments, an empty address registered in Llantrisant, are a Northern Development Company, links with Scarborough Developments who I think are a Global Investment Company (might be one in the same)subsidiary of a subsidiary. Facts and figures about the companies can be found. Don't know for sure, possible they have a loan outstanding with a bank maybe RBS, this info can be found. I will have another look. Valad does have a history of subsidaries going bankrupt.

    Think once the development is approved, the site will be built as the plans submitted, all the changes people are asking for will be irrelevent,once they are established, they may aim for expansion (keep options open) to later further develop, perhaps nearer to the school or possibly if the school is relocated? These were some of the community concerns raised.

    One young person, (a Leekes employee and of course anonymous )said it will be a disaster for the people who live near here, there will be, twenty four hour deliveries, late night shoppers,bars, traffic noise and pollution, while, fairness is a necessary consideration for large scale planning approval?

    Your thoughts are valuable.

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  17. The local businesses will find it difficult to survive and will need support from the local Chamber of Trade, special business rates,etc. Evidence shows that strategies like this can help smaller businesses.

    The areas Aberystwth, Swansea have published research regarding the negative affects on their Towns from the Large Retail Parks.

    In light of these inevitable and negative consequences, many other small communities earmarked for this type of developent are standing up to oppose.

    I read somewhere that good quality economic planning, investment, regeneration in Wales has suffered from the lack of a body such as The Welsh Development Agency, I don't know?

    One Bevan study found, that,despite having less income and wealth in the Rhonnda Valley, majority of people have a relatively good quality of life. I would think that there are many families who would wish to experience it. The study also revealed that despite being given a great deal of special economic investment, no real benefits were evident?

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  18. Thanks once again, Anon. Apologies for my late reply.

    Wales probably has suffered since the loss of the WDA, but I think many people had a rose-tinted view of how it performed. I think what it needed was a radical overhaul, not abolition.

    The problem with the Valleys is that through the WDA, they managed to attract the sort of low-wage, branch factory jobs that are now going to Eastern Europe and places like China. What we get now are developments like this, that might prop up a local economy but don't provide long-term solutions. We've never had those "long-term" solutions in Wales because things look so bad, we've all become incredibly cynical about our prospects and will accept any old thing if it means a temporary boost to the economy.

    What the Valleys, and probably Wales as a whole, needs is a joined up picture of where we would like to be. That includes things like the education system, transport, energy generation, health and welfare. Ultimately though, instead of being reliant of someone from the outside building things like the new Talbot Green town centre, we're going to have to develop our own companies and economy first. That should include our existing town centres at the heart, but as I've said, we're all going to have to change the way we spend our money, but we're heavily influenced by plastic consumerism and excessive consumption.

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  19. I absolutely agree.

    Although a lot of money spent on various studies by WAG and draft policies I see no evidence of application. When a short term low quality offer comes along? I think the evidence is clear for all to see, that there has been a lack of creative wealth producing economic and social development in the Valleys, a failure to improve long term upward social mobility, one dimensional thinking where there is potential to destroy we do have.

    Frusted with Political Institutions too?

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