tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post3999880393962926163..comments2023-08-14T15:34:05.504+01:00Comments on Oggy Bloggy Ogwr: The rise of Europe's far-rightOwenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04347494808853759106noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-87090291160265961192013-04-29T11:56:05.491+01:002013-04-29T11:56:05.491+01:00I think people in Wales don't want transformat...I think people in Wales don't want transformative change. Which is bad news for those of us that watch Welsh politics. The most popular agenda in electoral Welsh politics is social democracy (socialism at a push) with a Welsh accent. People will vote for further devolution off the back of that. But what I can't see is Labour making the same mistakes they've made in Scotland. Carwyn Jones could be in power for decades. People say 'we're a one party state' but the fact is the other parties aren't offering anything as safe or comfortable as he is. Both the Tories and Plaid seem to offer the prospect of drastic change. Which may well be needed, but is unpopular.<br /><br />The same realities also prevent the far-right from existing in Wales in any numerous form.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-51560065619890722352013-04-28T21:47:19.309+01:002013-04-28T21:47:19.309+01:00Thanks, Anon 21:05. That was a good read.
I think...Thanks, Anon 21:05. That was a good read.<br /><br />I think we've had our "Thatcher of the left" though - a certain Tony Blair. I'm too young to have strong feelings on Thatcher really, even if they're mainly negative. But for people my age, Blair is probably going to be our Thatcher figure. Now, he might not have been "left wing", but he certainly managed to push through some rather progressive things in his time in office which could be considered such - minimum wage, tax credits etc. He was also rather authoritarian and presidential, I don't think you can say he was a weak leader.<br /><br />If you're talking about a "left wing Thatcher" in terms of a strong left-wing leader, I think the chances of that happening in the UK are zero simply because of how UK elections are fought. It's based on marginal seats in England and fighting over a centre that shifted to the right since 1979. It's different in Wales and Scotland though, not that it makes much of an impact at UK level. That's probably why my nationalism is more pragmatic than emotional/cultural.<br /><br />I agree re. Carwyn & Rhodri. I think the big plus point for both is that they are/were, generally, seen as "safe pairs of hands". Rhodri probably more so than Carwyn I would say though. But beyond Carwyn, I can't think of anyone else in Welsh Labour who fits the bill. Maybe Leighton Andrews at a push.<br /><br />So that means someone else will fill that vacuum, and it'll probably be Leanne Wood. Welsh Labour might adopt nationalism-lite to good effect, but Plaid pretty much <i>are</i> Welsh nationalism. So yes, it helps the cause when Labour dance to Plaid's tune. :) Probably to both party's mutual benefit to be honest.<br />Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347494808853759106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-83486145405269252222013-04-28T21:05:16.927+01:002013-04-28T21:05:16.927+01:00Interesting points Owen, Slavoj Zizek in one of hi...Interesting points Owen, Slavoj Zizek in one of his latest articles has said that collectivist structures, ironically, usually "work" to any extent only if they're led or inspired by a big figure. He calls for a 'Thatcher of the left' in a 'tribute' to her. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2013/04/simple-courage-decision-leftist-tribute-thatcher .<br /><br />The same is true with nationalism although like it or loathe it (i'm not in the "like it" camp) Carwyn Jones is seen by most people as being a nationalist-lite figure defending Wales. I know! But that's how people see him. To an extent they associated Rhodri Morgan with soft nationalism too. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-17083592813734156922013-04-28T19:09:45.794+01:002013-04-28T19:09:45.794+01:00Anon 15:20 - Hydro Group - that's the one. Ta!...Anon 15:20 - Hydro Group - that's the one. Ta! :) I think though that "right" on the Welsh political spectrum means something different compared to the rest of the UK. I've blogged on that before here (<a href="http://oggybloggyogwr.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/wheres-centre-ground-in-welsh-politics.html" rel="nofollow">Where's the centre ground in Welsh politics?</a>).<br /><br />Anon 15:28 - I would consider myself, in the past, to have held "utopian" beliefs that could've been considered Communist, or (ironically) "Owenite", that would've made the left of Plaid seem moderate. But I've grown out of that down the years. I'd say that I'm probably more socially liberal than the Plaid mainstream and falling into a "syndicalist" category on the economy. I might not be as openly ideological as Welsh Ramblings was, but I'm just better at hiding it.<br /><br />I think the reality of having finite resources means that trying to create a top-down collectivised state requires very strong leadership at the top. That leaves the door open to dictatorship and a curbing of civil liberties if the people as a whole cede too much power to the state. I suppose you could say that it "works" in Cuba, but they're hardly squaky clean and they'll eventually have to adopt some market reforms. That'll probably happen when the Castro brothers are gone, I'd expect.<br /><br />GeertWilderForPresident - The Netherlands are a monarchy, aren't they? Geert Wilders can't become president of anything ;) And there are extremists in all walks of life, in all religions, in all nations, of all colours. It's just Muslims are under a bigger magnifying glass.<br /><br />Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347494808853759106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-40740106929999430482013-04-28T17:31:46.478+01:002013-04-28T17:31:46.478+01:00Muslims refuse to integrate, some of them refuse t...Muslims refuse to integrate, some of them refuse to learn local language, don't respect our laws, our value and get offended about everything. I'm not talking about immigrants (because most non-muslim immigrants are respectuf people), i'm talking abot islam, because even converted-to-islam-native stop to respect the local law and want only shariah lav for everybody (In my country there is a muslim web forum, yf you read it you will understand why we fear islam).<br />Muslims don't recognize nations as they look on geographic maps. For them there are only the nation of peace (that is the middle east) and the nation of war (that is the rest of the world).GeertWilderForPresidentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-4567604068225988812013-04-28T15:28:12.587+01:002013-04-28T15:28:12.587+01:00I think it's crude to suggest Golden Dawn woul...I think it's crude to suggest Golden Dawn would be out on a limb if Greece left the Euro. Fascism has a significant role in Greek society, remember the regime of the colonels? As does communism, from opposing that regime. I happen to sympathise with the Greek left (not centre-left) who basically want an independent Greece. But they couldn't win. Most Greeks want to stick with the Euro.<br /><br />Owen is also right to call eastern bloc communism "fascism with a human heart". There can be no denying that the intentions of the founders of those ideals were honourable. That is why it's a tragedy that it failed. Some of our greatest intellectuals , Brecht stands out, gave it the benefit of the doubt because it was supposed to be the end of fascism and the opposite of it. It's interesting how most or all communist countries end up relying on nationalism and patriotism to bolster their identities. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-82913153316255350302013-04-28T15:20:04.785+01:002013-04-28T15:20:04.785+01:00Owen mentioned a right-wing sub-sect of Plaid name...Owen mentioned a right-wing sub-sect of Plaid named after a hotel, he's talking about the Hydro Group. They were active within the party in the 1970s. However beware of what "right-wing" means in a Plaid context! They were mostly liberals and social democrats. They ultimately weren't as charismatic as the National Left which was their rival faction and involved people like Dafydd El and Emrys Roberts. Most of the party was in the middle of these two camps. The right wing of Plaid is largely centre-left or liberal. Which makes complete sense seeing as Plaid's main constituency was once Welsh Liberal territory.<br /><br />There are right-wing nationalists outside of Plaid. But I've never heard of far-right/fascist Welsh nationalists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-30416842313591104282013-04-28T10:08:25.711+01:002013-04-28T10:08:25.711+01:00Thanks Jac & Anon 09:35.
I was just pointing ...Thanks Jac & Anon 09:35.<br /><br />I was just pointing out to Fulub that there were (centre) right Welsh nationalists out there. No offence intended.<br /><br />As for "fascism with a heart". Set out with what could be considered "good intentions" - brotherhood of workers, collective means of production and all that stuff - but it developed into full-blown totalitarianism because it was fatally flawed. So it's still a cold heart. <br /><br />I consider the English in Wales foreign immigrants using freedom of movement within the EU, as that's what they would be if Wales were an independent nation-state. I don't consider it colonialism because the definition of people moving from England to Wales wouldn't suddenly change post-independence, other than the inclusion of an international border.<br /><br />My opposition to "colonialism" would be institutional. That includes Westminster's primacy, aspects of how the civil service is run, the soft cultural colonialism of things like the BBC and the UK print press, managed decline along the northern coast and valleys, patronising portrayals of the Welsh - and, as you've pointed out several times Jac - the cronyism/corruption/high-handedness in all tiers of Welsh government and the third sector.<br /><br />I did make a distinction between the far-right parties - which in many cases like Jobbik and Golden Dawn would be categorised as fascist - and parties who are as you put it Jac, "crude populists" and perhaps deep down, just closet xenophobes.<br /><br />Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347494808853759106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-74422128800344982542013-04-28T09:35:27.589+01:002013-04-28T09:35:27.589+01:00I think Jac hit the nail on the head there. Most W...I think Jac hit the nail on the head there. Most Welsh nationalists are anti-colonialist, no matter where they stand on the political spectrum. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-33466133365631133542013-04-27T21:03:26.401+01:002013-04-27T21:03:26.401+01:00"Many younger people in eastern Europe of vot..."Many younger people in eastern Europe of voting age, will not have grown up under the iron jackboot of Soviet Communism, which was nothing more than fascism with a heart". With a heart! Care to explain?<br /><br />I'm not sure I like being mentioned in what is a discussion on fascism. The question, "Is there a right-wing or far-right Welsh nationalist scene?" could easily have been answered with 'No'. And should have been. The colonisation by the country that rules us that I (and others) oppose is completely different to the opposition to immigration dealt with in your post. Colonisation, not immigration.<br /><br />In fact, I suggest that the post itself is founded on a misnomer. There is little or no fascism in Europe today. There may be many groups and parties opposing 'islamification', immigration and God knows what else, but that's fundamentally racism. Whereas pre-war Europe knew something approaching a fascist ideology which, in Italy, had little racist, and no anti-semitic, content. That is largely gone, replaced by a crude populism. <br />Jac o' the North,https://www.blogger.com/profile/02032744625666336148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-36684242829001746012013-04-27T18:07:05.573+01:002013-04-27T18:07:05.573+01:00Thanks, Fulub.
Officially, no. But there are unof...Thanks, Fulub.<br /><br />Officially, no. But there are unofficial Welsh nationalist movements that could be considered "right-wing" in terms of opposition to immigration (usually English) along with a more strident cultural nationalism. Jac o' the North and Miserable Old Fart are probably the most prominent "right-wing nationalists" on the blogosphere. Welsh Not British probably straddles the line too. So right-wing Welsh nationalists definitely exist and are quite vocal.<br /><br />Plaid Cymru are constitutionally committed to decentralised socialism. But I have heard a term - named after a hotel I think - used to describe a "right wing sub-sect", though by right-wing that probably means a Lib Dem style centralism. I can't remember was it was though.<br /><br />But there's no far-right/right-wing Welsh nationalist movement like Vlaams Belang.Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347494808853759106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-83062168246023735742013-04-27T17:53:05.311+01:002013-04-27T17:53:05.311+01:00Is there a right-wing or far-right Welsh nationali...Is there a right-wing or far-right Welsh nationalist scene as can be found in Brittany and other stateless nations in Europe? http://thebretonconnection.blogspot.fr/2013/03/fascist-alert-breton-far-right.html You've already mentioned Vlaams Belang I see. cornubianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13985409305363332274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-63731077101770746712013-04-27T17:16:43.841+01:002013-04-27T17:16:43.841+01:00Thanks, Anon.
Winston Churchill is famously quote...Thanks, Anon.<br /><br />Winston Churchill is famously quoted as wanting a "United States of Europe" too, it's just he probably enviseged the then British Empire staying out of it. It was a logical development - regardless of who was advocating it - luckily it was the liberal democracies that won out.<br /><br />You make a good point about a devalued Greek currency. The same could probably be said for Spain, Ireland and Portugal too. However, unless things have dramatically changed the vast majority of Greeks seem to want to keep the euro, but lose the austerity. You can't entirely blame them, but they're stuck between a rock and a hard place.<br /><br />I don't think EU policies come anywhere near to a definition of fascism. The things you list could be used to describe a whole host of political regimes which we would consider free democracies. Wales has plenty of "unelected apparatchiks despatched from London" for example working in the civil service or local government. Imperialists also - especially ambitious nascent ones - usually want to expand. So why would the EU <i>not</i> accept Turkey as a member? Why did they turn down Morocco's application?<br /><br />The EU isn't a nation and it isn't a nationality - it probably never will be either. It's probably in a category of its own as an entity. Though I definitely believe it needs significant reform, even if the overbearing nature of it is perhaps what keeps it from falling apart.<br /><br />And I don't see what's wrong with overthrowing the likes of Gadaffi. Those decisions are ultimately taken by nation-states though or military alliance like NATO. There were no "EU" fighter jets bombing Tripoli under the control of an "EU command"; they were Italian, French, British etc being directed by NATO. Most EUFOR missions seem to be very small deployments, usually to do with building capacity in civilian policing or peace-keeping.<br /><br />I think it's much better to co-ordinate these things through a continental alliance than through piddling wannabe "global powers" banging their fists on the table of the UN Security Council.Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04347494808853759106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3566608350707334311.post-61769971509779636892013-04-27T16:22:03.298+01:002013-04-27T16:22:03.298+01:00I don't know if you've read much about Mos...I don't know if you've read much about Mosley's post-war Union Movement and its European allies. I'd say that the centrist, supra-nationalist, corporatist EU is more or less what they were advocating. There's a reason why Turkey will never be accepted into membership of the EU.<br /><br />A neo-Nazi party like Golden Dawn would be nowhere if Greece would drop out of the Euro. A devalued currency would certainly get the country back to work and the same goes for Spain, where 70% of young people are workless in much of the country.<br /><br />Now the point you seem to be making is that if a country voted in a government that pursued fascist policies it would be brought back into line by the EU. But I would contend that the EU is already pursuing fascist policies - support of big business against the individual and the small firm, European nationalism directed against the US and Russia, a nascent imperialism such as the overthrow of Gadaffi and the Serbs and, no doubt, Assad, the disregard for elected governments and the rule of unelected apparatchiks despatched from Brussels.<br /><br />Far more likely is that the EU will use sanctions against democratically elected governments pursuing populist, nationalist policies. We've already seen some signs of that in Austria, Ireland, Cyprus, Greece, Hungary and Spain.<br /><br />Eurofascism is what Mosley advocated as long ago as 1945 and it seems to me we're well on the way to that now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com